Well There’s Your Problem | Episode 12: Hillsborough Disaster

JUSTIN: And here we are. Again. Back where we started. ALICE: Yes. Back at the beginning of the podcast, we absolutely
did not have to go through a bunch of stuff just to get to this first slide for the second
time. LIAM: Don’t worry about it. JUSTIN: God forbid, God forbid. Welcome to ‘Well There’s Your Problem,’ an
engineering podcast where we have to start the podcast twice…
[laughter] JUSTIN: …to, uh, ensure that we got it right,
um, I’m Justin Roczn- ALICE: [cutting him off] But, yeah. [laughter]
JUSTIN: Oh. ALICE: For twice as many pronoun checks. JUSTIN: Yeah, twice as many pronoun checks. My pronouns are ‘he/him’ *and* ‘he/him’. Uh…
[laughter] LIAM: Double whammy. JUSTIN: Yes. Uh. LIAM: Alice, go, I feel weird me doing second. ALICE: Oh for fuck’s sake. No, I was, I was gonna let Justin do it because
I cut him off, so, like, everyone’s only gonna know him as ‘Justin Roczn-‘
JUSTIN: Oh, right, y’know, Justin Roczn*iak*. LIAM: We gotta protect his ID. JUSTIN: There’s an additional syllable. Yes. Everyone knows who I am. LIAM: Yeah. ALICE: Ah, that’s true. Alice Caldwell-Kelly, my pronouns are ‘she’,
‘her’, ‘she’ and ‘her’, I’m also on a podcast called Trashfuture, you should listen to it. LIAM: You should listen to it. Uh, I am Liam Anderson, pronouns are ‘he/him/he/him,’
I am on Twitter @oldmananders0n, and also in our comments section, uh. Conveniently, uh, we took some of our listeners’
angry, deranged, furious opinions that we should, uh, not stick to sports. [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah, we are going to Reverse Deadspin. LIAM: We are gonna stick to fucking sports,
kids. [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah, only sports. JUSTIN: Only gonna talk about sports from
here on out. ALICE: Why did Jim Spanfeller buy an engineering
podcast? [laughter]
LIAM: I fuckin’… arrrrgh. I was ready to go, I thought you were talking
about Dean Spanos, the guy who owns the Chargers, who is a horrible fuckin’ human being, and
I was like, “Ah! Ah! Chargers, I’m ready.” [laughter]
ALICE: No, another horrible human being, no. JUSTIN: No, actually, we’re gonna get moved
to Chicago now, that’s the annoying bit. ALICE: Yeah, we’re actually under The Onion. LIAM: Well, on the bright side, I do *like*
Chicago. JUSTIN: Just under an enormous onion, just
pinned down. [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah. JUSTIN: Struggling to breathe. LIAM: Aw, man, I didn’t even see that get
in the house. JUSTIN: Damn stealthy. With the onions. Alright, so. We’re lookin’ at a picture of a soccer pitch,
or football pitch if you’re European. You’ll notice there’s a lot of people on it. And an ambulance. ALICE: Well, back then, you had to, you had
to pay by the pixel, which is why it looks like that. JUSTIN: This is also true, yes. LIAM: Well, it looks bad because you’re a
European. ALICE: Yeah, there was only, like, they were
rationed in Europe until like the 70s. JUSTIN: Yeah, everyone remembers when the
world switched from black and white to color, but no-one talks about how many more pixels
we have these days. ALICE: Absolutely. LIAM: It’s dizzying, honestly. Go back to 480i, that’s all I can handle. [laughter]
JUSTIN: No, today we’re gonna talk about the Hillsborough Disaster, right, which was a
disaster when too many people tried to squeeze into too small of a space at a football match. LIAM: That doesn’t sound ideal. JUSTIN: Yeah. ALICE: No. There was too much sports, and people tried
to sports too much, and a terrible thing happened. JUSTIN: Yes. Highly unfortunate. So, I thought we’d start by talking about
stampedes, right? [laughter]
ALICE: Going into this with the kind of reverence and, uh, yeah. LIAM: Yeah, subtlety that we are known for. ALICE: Exactly. JUSTIN: Alright. So, a lot of times, in the media, right, we’ll
– they’ll sort of talk about any sort of crowd disaster as a stampede, right? And, sort of, a stampede, I guess, it’s a
sort of fast moving crowd, and it tramples people to death who fall over, right? And this is the *less* common of the two kinds
of crowd disasters, right, cause usually it doesn’t kill a lot of people – well, only
the people who fall over. What’s much more common is something called
a crush, right? ALICE: Well, that sounds so much better. JUSTIN: I know, right? So-
LIAM: Oh, people crush, you know. JUSTIN: Yeah. You have like a crowd that’s moving in one
direction, right, and, or they’re moving away from something, and they reach a barrier of
some kind. Right? And they can’t get through. ALICE: Unstoppable force… JUSTIN: Yeah. ALICE: …immovable object. JUSTIN: Yes. And, y’know, people push up against that thing,
right, and they get sort of crushed into it. Sometimes this causes, like, asphyxiation
or physical crushing injuries. Sometimes, a lot of times, this can kill a
lot of people really quick, right? And of course, both of these things are usually
accompanied by other disasters goin’ on at the same time, so, y’know. Maybe there’s a fire, people are trying to
get out of the theater. Maybe they’re trying to get out of a sinking
boat, I don’t know, y’know. ALICE: Yeah. LIAM: Or they’re trying to escape The Lion
King. JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly. ALICE: Trying to escape a theater fire on
a boat, and the theater is showing The Lion King. JUSTIN: Yes. LIAM: Very specific normally-
JUSTIN: The new Lion King, not the old one. LIAM: [frustrated noise] You don’t have to
do this, Disney. Now that we’ve already stolen all of your
intellectual property, which, shout out to that… Oh, since my girlfriend does not listen to
this podcast, I can say that she is a huge Disney fan, and we included a Disney still,
and she’ll never hear about it, so that’s super tight. Hi Re-
ALICE: Yeah. [laughter]
ALICE: Absolutely do not seek out Liam’s girlfriend to, like, inform on us. JUSTIN: Oh God. LIAM: Yeah, please don’t do that. JUSTIN: Oh God. Alright. So, y’know, if you’re, like, in crowd and
you’re worried there might be a crush, usually you’re not at risk of that until there’s like…
around six to seven people per square meter? Or at least that’s what Wikipedia said. I didn’t look into the research more. ALICE: Just getting out a big tape measure
to measure the square meter around you. LIAM: “Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me.” [laughter]
JUSTIN: If there’s people bumping into you on all four sides, then you’re in The Danger
Zone. LIAM: Oh yeah, that’s super tight. ALICE: Are we gonna get the sting for that? JUSTIN: Oh. Then you’re shakin’ hands with danger. [‘Shake Hands With Danger’ riff]
ALL: Shake haaaands with danger. ALICE: Shake danger with both hands. On like, four sides. [laughter]
LIAM: That’s actually incredibly impressive dexterity, congratulations on rolling a natural
20. ALICE: It’s like the thing where you, like,
have a meeting or something and you have to like shake hands around a table. LIAM: Oh I HATE that. ALICE: Like, not knowing what you’re doing
with both hands, yeah. JUSTIN: It’s like you’re at church. LIAM: I am your business clown, please hire
me. [laughter]
ALICE: Yes. JUSTIN: [church voice] “Peace be with you. Shake hands with danger.” [laughter]
LIAM: And upon you. ALICE: Why did we stop doing the kiss of peace
for shaking hands with danger, anyway? JUSTIN: Uhhhhhhhhh. LIAM: Shvitzing like a priest in a preschool. JUSTIN: [hauling us back on topic] Yes. Y’know, wh- how do we avoid crush disasters,
right? How do we avoid stampedes? And, there’s, like, multiple methods. I think one of the most extreme examples,
um, of course, is in Saudi Arabia, in- ALICE: Ah, that place we love. JUSTIN: Oh yes. LIAM: Trusted US ally, yes! JUSTIN: This is the… Alice, you may have to help me on this one. [laughter]
LIAM: Oh God. JUSTIN: This is the… Jamaraat Bridge? In Mina? ALICE: Pretty good! Yeah. JUSTIN: [relieved] Okay. Okay. ALICE: Yeah, you nailed it on this one. That is, erm, it’s part of the hajj, you,
uh, stone those… you see the vertical bits at the bottom there, those are around stone
pillars – which are kind of like walls now – and you throw stones at them. It’s theologically important, and also, people
all like to do it at the same time of day, even though you don’t have to, so you get,
like, the fucking population of Belgium all trying to get through that bridge in, like,
an hour. LIAM: That just sounds like an extreme version
of hazing. I’m into it. I’m into it. ALICE: Yeah. The thing is, Islam is not a religion that
tolerates social anxiety very well? [laughter]
JUSTIN: It’s, I feel like, uh, the hajj, theologically, was, it was sort of intended that, y’know,
maybe fewer people would do it? Or not all at the same time? ALICE: Yeahhhhhh. People have talked about, uh, the possibility
of, like, extending it, erm, so like, you do it over two months rather than one? I think that would probably be wise? But, yeah, nothing’s sort of going on with
that, and so we’re just adding more stacks onto this giant parkade here, and cramming
more people into it. LIAM: Makes sense. JUSTIN: It is, it does look like a parking
garage, right? With, like, highway ramps going into it, but
it’s all pedestrian infrastructure. ALICE: Mhm. JUSTIN: Because of, y’know, the chronic crushes
and stampedes, which have plagued the hajj for decades now. ALICE: Yeah, like, one every ten years, give
or take. LIAM: Good lord. JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly. Y’know, and they just keep getting bigger,
just because, y’know, so many more people are doin’ it. ALICE: Yeah. JUSTIN: So, one of the ways you do this is
through a lot of pedestrian infrastructure [belch], and the other way you do it is through,
y’know, good crowd control, right? If you can just prevent so many people from
going into one space at once, y’know, and sort of control ’em, well, you can avoid these
problems, and I do think it’s interesting that they’re, they, in Islam, y’all are like,
maybe adopting theology for practical concerns, that’s very Catholic. LIAM: Yeah, man. ALICE: Yes. [laughter]
ALICE: Well, I mean, one thing, one thing with the Jamaraat Bridge is that like, uh,
as we’ll see later on with crushes and stampedes and stuff, is that if you widen one area,
you just kind of create more choke points further out? LIAM: Oh good! ALICE: And so they had just finished expanding
this one, when I think the most recent crush happened, and that was like, two of the sort
of, the off-ramps of this? Which were a little bit smaller because you’re
not *as* worried about people going *out*, uh, sort of converged on each other and people
got trapped in the middle. LIAM: Oh good lord. JUSTIN: Oops. LIAM: That’s brutal, holy shit. ALICE: Yeah, it was really bad. Yeah. But that’s kind of the problem with it. Every time you try and allow for more traffic
somewhere, it costs you somewhere else. Uh, and it’s very very difficult to work around
that. LIAM: [stupid guy voice] “Why don’t they just
add a lane?” [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah, no, just, the most Saudi possible solution to this is to issue every pilgrim
a Segway. LIAM: That’d be tight, though. I’d wanna see that. ALICE: Yeah. One of those little airport people movers
with like the individual pods, and you just like go round on a rail and throw stones out
of the window. JUSTIN: Can you do the hajj on the off-season? ALICE: Uh, no. There is, there’s one month for it. LIAM: That’s… Jesus! JUSTIN: Ah, c’mon, I thought there was like
an exhibition hajj or somethin’. [laughter]
LIAM: Hajj friendly. ALICE: If you do it any other time of year,
it’s an umrah, which is still good but it’s not the thing that you absolutely-positively
have to do once, if you can. Uh, so, every year, for one month, the population
of Mecca goes up by like fifty times. Uh. They have a metro, by the way, since we’re
doing, like, a train podcast, that’s literally – it’s almost never used, apart from one month
and then it’s just like, Japanese-style, dudes pushing people into carriages. JUSTIN: Wow. LIAM: Good lord. ALICE: Yeah. JUSTIN: I was lookin’ at Google Maps at Mecca,
and I was like, this seems like… Islamic Pittsburgh. ALICE: [cracking up]
JUSTIN: Just, like, the general layout of the city. [laughter]
ALICE: Uh, yeah, it… well, it’s Pittsburgh but then the Saudis built Las Vegas on top
of it? LIAM: Nice! ALICE: So you have this giant ugly clock tower,
just looming over the masjid al-haram. It’s, it’s very, very ugly, it’s also still
like, all of the expensive modern stuff like the Jamaraat Bridge, or the tent city of Mina,
still kills a bunch of people. Because they cut corners, or they don’t engineer
things well, and, yeah. I feel like the hajj is kind of a whole episode
in itself. JUSTIN: Honestly, yeah, that would be a good
episode. So. Yeah, we’ll have to do that at some point. ALICE: Yeah. Stay tuned for that, and like a video compilation
of people falling off of Mount Ararat. JUSTIN: Oh God. [laughter]
ALICE: It’s just a hill, it’s fine, you just end up crowdsurfing, is the thing. LIAM: Oh, that sounds very relaxing. JUSTIN: And one of the things about, like,
crowd control in terms of crushes, is a lot of times, y’know, people – especially the
media – they try and blame individuals in the crowd for causing the problem. LIAM: [disbelievingly] Nooooooo. Nooooooooooo? ALICE: Well the fucking, uh, the fucking Saudis
love doing this! Every time there’s something at, on hajj,
they’re always like, “Ah, it’s cause there was Iranians. They don’t know how to queue.” Or whatever. [laughter]
ALICE: With their, like, swarthy Shia ways, they just, yeah. It’s wild. JUSTIN: They just don’t have respect for,
uh, y’know, the ancient traditions in quite the way the Saudis do. [laughter]
LIAM: Oh, of course. ALICE: They’re all fucking sagging their pants,
and listening to hip-hop… [laughter]
ALICE: Unacceptable. JUSTIN: [dumb guy voice] “I don’t like these
new uh hip-hop Muslims coming to the hajj these days.” ALICE: [losing it]
JUSTIN: “Real lunchpail, real lunchpail Muslims…” ALICE: Gotta have that coachability. Got it. [laughter]
LIAM: Gotta get your lunchpail whatever… whatever two steps above a Four Seasons is. Very down to earth, on the hajj, as I’m being
fed grapes like Hedonismbot. [laughter]
JUSTIN: But uh, yeah, no-one has individual control over a crowd unless, y’know, you’re
actively doing… you’re the guy doing crowd control. Right? ALICE: They gotta give you the vest. If you have the vest you can move crowds around. LIAM: Yeah. Hi-vis and hard hat’s all you need. JUSTIN: If you have the vest, and something
happens, then it’s your fault, yes. [laughter]
ALICE: Yes. We’ll get into this with South Yorkshire Police
in a bit. LIAM: [disgusted noise]
JUSTIN: So, uh, with that in mind, let’s talk about the next part of this, which is – what
is football hooliganism? LIAM: Ah boy. ALICE: They say Britain has no organic culture,
but… who else could have invented the Millwall brick, folding up a newspaper so that you
can sneak it through stadium security and using it as brass knuckles. [laughter]
LIAM: That’s incredible. That’s… see, necessity being the mother
of invention. ALICE: Absolutely. JUSTIN: So, football hooliganism, it’s basically
like, y’know, football fans who like fighting other football fans. At its most basic. Sometimes it’s political, um, like, y’know,
there’s football clubs associated with like fascists [fuck Lazio], or antifascists. ALICE: Oh sure, like fucking, Livorno, who
we should all stan, for being antifascist kings. LIAM: Oh yeah those guys rule. Or, say, the Old Firm, Celtic and, uh, Rangers. Or the corpse of Rangers. ALICE: Yes, Celtic fans, always very intersectional,
when we were playing Lazio [fuck Lazio] last year, we got fined because we showed the Lazio
fascist fans a big banner of Mussolini hanging upside down. LIAM: YES YOU DID. Yes you did! Ah, the one time I’ve been to Paradise, I
was in The Jungle, and it was both the most exhilarating and absolutely fuckin’ terrifying
thing I’ve ever experienced. It fucking ruled, come on you bhoys in green,
etc. ALICE: So. Yes. Um, football hooliganism: it’s a land of contrasts. LIAM: Protestants deserve it. JUSTIN: Of course, we’re talking about the
1980s, and a lot of it is just racism. And… I guess an equivalent in the United States
of America, I don’t know that we have a real equivalent. Closest thing I could think of is, if you
imagine- LIAM: College football. JUSTIN: College football, but also I was thinkin’,
um, if anyone’s heard of the infamous Ten Cent Beer Night. [laughter]
LIAM: Aw yeah buddy! ALICE: Yeah, you finally achieved an almost
British level of average drunkenness. JUSTIN: Yes. That was, uh, 1974 Cleveland Indians game. They were playing the Texas Rangers, it was
5-5 in the 9th inning, but of course everyone was wildly intoxicated off ten cent beers. LIAM: Who could’ve seen this coming. JUSTIN: Please keep in mind, these were 12oz.
pours of 3.2% ABV beer. [laughter]
ALICE: [almost wistfully] Just, oh God, the torrent of beer piss coming down the stairs,
ugghhh. LIAM: Oh yeah. JUSTIN: A bunch of wildly intoxicated fans
rushed the field, in the 9th inning. So imagine that but imagine it happening to
some extent every game. ALICE: Yeah. What about, like, uhhh, hockey? You riot when you win the Stanley Cup or whatever,
right? LIAM: Or lose it. You mean when my team, the Boston Bruins,
won game 7 of the Stanley Cup final in Vancouver, depriving Canadians of being the best in the
world at their own goddamn sport… ALICE: [laughing]
LIAM: And a bunch of pissed-off Canadians were like, [Canadian voice] “Uhh I can’t believe
our really good team collapsed out of nowhere, even though it was gonna do that all season. Waaa!” ALICE: Yeah, it’s kind of like that, it’s
kind of like the hockey thing where you like, set fire to your own city-
LIAM: WHO WOULD DO THAT. ALICE: -but also the other team is in on it
too. Yeah. LIAM: [mischievously] Go birds. JUSTIN: Go birds. [laughter]
ALICE: Are we not moving on until I say “Go birds” too? It’s like the shahada. LIAM: Yeah, you have to. C’mon, let’s go. ALICE: Go birds. LIAM: Thank you Alice. JUSTIN: Thank you Alice. [laughter]
JUSTIN: So, there were a couple of, like, there was a moral panic about hooliganism
in the 1980s, right. Some of it was *kinda* justified, and some
of it wasn’t, right. So, before the incident we’re gonna talk about
today, there was a previous incident involving the Liverpool Football Club, their supporters
in… uh. What is it, Haycel? ALICE: Heysel. JUSTIN: Heysel. Heysel, I can’t pronounce anything. ALICE: The fucking Dutch! I, yeah. LIAM: Ughhhh. I hate the Dutch. [laughter]
JUSTIN: So they, uh, the fans rushed a barrier to attack uh Juventus fans, right, and those
fans ran away and then they crushed into a concrete wall, and that killed 39 people. And, y’know, the only way this crush was alleviated
was when the wall fell over. LIAM: Well, that will do it. ALICE: It was real bad, yeah. One thing I should say about, like, class
and hooliganism and stuff, is that this wasn’t just like, random fans – it was always kind
of organized in some sense. Like there would be, uh, “supporters’ clubs”,
like “legitimate businessmen’s associations” or whatever, that would organize and seek
out violence. And so you can have a football game with,
like, the majority of people going to it being totally unaware of the existence of this fucking,
uh, Kumite-style martial arts tournament on the side of it. [laughter]
JUSTIN: Yeah, it’s weird. I don’t know that we have-
LIAM: Ultras are a hell of a thing, yeah. ALICE: Oh, yeah. It’s weird, though, because like, in civil
disorder, where like, society breaks down or whatever, football ultras – like, football
hooligans – often end up being paramilitaries, just because they are very well suited to
doing that already. It happened during the Egyptian Revolution,
in Ukraine, a bunch of other times. So, for good or ill, they’re kind of this
weird organized, violent uhhhh political force. LIAM: That sounds mostly for ill. ALICE: Yeah, it is mostly for ill. [laughter]
ALICE: I just really, I don’t… yeah. I don’t wanna fucking, uh, throw Celtic under
the bus. LIAM: Thanks, bud, thank you. ALICE: I’m being quite circumspect here. Yes. JUSTIN: We’re all beat up by football hooligans
at the end of this episode. [laughter]
JUSTIN: They’re already tracking us. LIAM: The funniest fuckin’ thing in the world
to me is the uh. Oh God, the Americans who try to like, take
on the dressings of hooliganism. So you have people fighting over clubs that
were created out of whole cloth, like… I don’t know. Two weeks ago? That’s so fucking funny. ALICE: Well, it’s weird because your actual
fascists managed to like, to try and ape the aesthetic style of British football hooligans
for a while. Like, before he went all suit and tie, Richard
Spencer was very into, like, Stone Island, and the kind of haircut and stuff. LIAM: Oh of course he fucking was. ALICE: Yeah, it was straight out of, like,
80s Millwall. It was wild. JUSTIN: Wasn’t there, isn’t there a football
club in America which was getting fined or just generally, like, their supporters were
taking up the Iron Front as their… LIAM: Yeah. ALICE: It was the Sounders, I think. LIAM: Sounders or the Timbers, yeah. ALICE: Yeah, it was Sounders, for sure. I dunno, football and the class character
of football is very different in the UK? It’s, like, for a long time it’s been The
Working Class Sport, and it’s been kind of gentrified since then. But at the time we’re talking about, in the
70s and 80s, we’re talking about, uh, northern towns particularly, and inner city areas,
that are undergoing brutal privatization and deindustrialization, there’s nothing else
to do *except* fight people. Uh, and it’s this kind of terrifying, sort
of working class phenomenon to a lot of respectable conservatives and liberals. JUSTIN: Well I guess that ties in to the next
thing, which is like, Margaret Thatcher [pauses for boo] of course. ALICE: [obligingly] BOOOOOOOOOOOOO
LIAM: Ugh. JUSTIN: …tries to assemble like this sort
of ‘war cabinet’ against football hooliganism. LIAM: Oh, of course she fuckin’ does. JUSTIN: And tries to implement a bunch of
stiff jail terms, uh, y’know, other heavy-handed punishments. I don’t think she gets any of them through? ALICE: No. But it speaks to the kind of instinct in government. JUSTIN: There was a moral panic going on,
right? ALICE: For sure. JUSTIN: There was more police at matches,
and there’s more, like. Y’know, every fan is suspect. ALICE: Yeah, which still, some of that still
lingers. If you go to a football game in the UK, a
big one, the amount and kind of the nature of the policing there is very, very, uh. I think you will be surprised by it if you
haven’t grown up with it, just seeing fucking, like, armoured fucking riot police and cops
on horses and stuff, physically escorting columns of fans to the stadium and back, it’s…
this stuff has a long, long memory in football. JUSTIN: I went to an exhibition match, in…
what was it? That place… Harrison, New Jersey. LIAM: Yeah. JUSTIN: It was a Bayern Munich game, I think
it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid, and they uh, the security… I brought my bag, cause I had Stuff. To bring. Right? And they wanted to search my bag, and they
wanted to get rid of a screwdriver in there. ALICE: Yup. LIAM: Mhm. JUSTIN: It was like, this is a lot of security. I’m not gonna… what am I gonna do with a
screwdriver? I mean, obviously I could stab someone with
it. LIAM: That’s exactly what they were gonna…
yeah, man. JUSTIN: Yeah. I was, like, very angry. I hid it in a bush and I got it back afterwards,
so. [laughter]
LIAM: I did that, or we did that, when my friend and I – your friend and mine – went
to, we drove from Pennsylvania down to beautiful Oxford, Mississippi, to see Ole Miss play
Fresno State, and they wouldn’t let us take our bag in, which was genuinely, goddamn,
unbelievable. And we were so aghast, and we ended up doing
this, we just threw it in a bush, like, “Fuck, well, come back for it later,” and the guy
was like, “It ain’t gonna be there when you come back!” and lo and behold, it was there
when we came back, because I assume everybody at that game was way too fuckin’ intoxicated
to even know what a backpack was. [laughter]
LIAM: Go Rebs I guess. ALICE: Sound off in the comments with your
favorite way to, like, evade security. [laughter]
LIAM: Oh, my favorite part is the metal detectors at the Wells Fargo Center aren’t ever turned
on. JUSTIN: I like it. ALICE: The shit you can get away with in continental
Europe, and especially central and eastern Europe, their football games, is wild. Like, you’ll just routinely see fucking road
flares coming onto the pitch. LIAM: Ohhh I love that shit. ALICE: Like, officials getting batteries thrown
at them and stuff. LIAM: [pretending to be outraged] WHO WOULD
DO THAT. JUSTIN: Yeah, who would do that. [laughter]
JUSTIN: …Santa Claus is an official, technically, right? [laughter increases]
JUSTIN: So, um, alright, let’s just keep in mind there’s sort of a moral panic about hooliganism
going on, sort of in this era, right. Okay, so, let’s sort of talk about the events
leading up to this disaster. [immediately gets distracted] I like, um. I got my um, John Madden thing back. [changes slide] Oh. ALICE: Oh, you got your John Madden thing
back. LIAM: Oh good, sports are- [disappointed]
ohhhh. [laughter]
ALICE: Already, already, yeah. JUSTIN: Yeah. I like how they just have an ad for hydraulic
pumps up here. LIAM: Look at those shorts!
[laughter] ALICE: Oh, they – fucking, like, the advertising
hoardings at British football games are just, yeah, insane stuff. It’s like, either, ‘do you wanna buy insurance?’
or ‘do you wanna buy, like, a zamboni?’ or something. JUSTIN: I would like a zamboni. LIAM: Yeah, we know it, bud.
[laughter] ALICE: ‘Are you interested in, like, prefabricated
concrete sections?’ LIAM: Yes. ALICE: Because, yeah, because we’ll fuckin’
advertise that to you. And then the shirt sponsors, like… JUSTIN: There’s a scrapyard, down here, they’re
advertising. ALICE: Yeah. Absolutely. And then, especially in the lower leagues,
you’ll find out that the team’s being sponsored, is being sponsored by somebody who paid enough
to get their name, their company name, on the jersey, and the name is, fucking, I don’t
know, SexToyDildosForSale.com. It’s just, yeah. Incredible. JUSTIN: This team is sponsored by Jeff. Just, some guy named Jeff. [laughter]
ALICE: What is ‘Sugg Sport Sugg’? I… all of this is baffling. That’s a fake name. LIAM: Also ‘engineered cutting tools’, I like
that. JUSTIN: Yes. It’s a plumbing, heating, ventilation and
air conditioning down here. ALICE: Yeah, basically you have all of the
people that Grover should have hired to make Groverhaus, will advertise on one side of
a football stadium. [laughter]
JUSTIN: Alright, so, leading up to the disaster, right. This is, this game was gonna, the 15th of
April 1989, right? This is Liverpool vs Nottingham Forest, right. ALICE: Yup. Two kind of ‘scrappy’ clubs, at this point,
I guess? Like, Forest are coming off a kind of good
decade at the beginning of a long, long slow decline, but they both still have this reputation
of being, like, I don’t know, A Scary Working Class Thing. The thing is, it’s difficult, because *now*,
uh, the Premiership, and especially something like Liverpool, that’s an international brand
and like, you see people wearing Liverpool football jerseys and stuff, it did *not* used
to be like that in the 80s. LIAM: But then they get that Red Sox money,
yeahhhhhhh buddy. [laughter]
ALICE: Yes. Yeah, exactly. But it was much less clean and much less corporate
at this time. JUSTIN: So, this is held in Hillsborough,
right. It’s neutral ground, this is neither of the
teams’ stadium. And of course because of our hooliganism moral
panic, the fans are completely segregated from each other, right, they have two separate
entrances for supporters of either football club, right. ALICE: Yup. And, like I say, you will have the cops, like,
walk them from the stadium in like a big fucking kettle. LIAM: Well, this is appropriate English. JUSTIN: Nottingham Forest came from the east,
Liverpool came from the west, no-one has a chance to fight each other, um, and there’s
limited access to the turnstiles as a result, especially for Liverpool. And this turned out to be a very crowded game,
right, and the crowds at the turnstiles for Liverpool were dense enough that they were
at a point where they couldn’t even turn people away from the turnstiles, because there was
nowhere for them to go. Like, if you have the wrong ticket or you
didn’t have a ticket and you got as far as the turnstiles, they couldn’t send you away. Because there were too many people. ALICE: Oh sweet. Yeah, perfect. LIAM: Oh good. ALICE: This is a lifehack. JUSTIN: Yes. [beat] Not a good one. ALICE: No. LIAM: This is more of an end of life hack. JUSTIN: Yeah. LIAM: …really thought that was gonna land
better. [laughter]
JUSTIN: So, uh, let’s look at the plan here, right? This is the Liverpool side, right. So, we got some perimeter gates out here,
right, and you got the turnstiles here, and additional turnstiles over here. Now, to get into Pen 3 and Pen 4, over here,
you had to go through this tunnel. And these pens are not like modern seating,
right. Cause, number one, they’re not seating. Standing room only. ALICE: Seats are for real people. If you’re in the working class you have to
stand. JUSTIN: Seats are bourgeois, yeah. Seats are aspirational. [laughter]
ALICE: What you might… it’s just gonna be like, terraced steps, and if you’re lucky
you might have, like, a railing to lean on. Probably not, though. LIAM: Oh, that’s good, that sounds safe. JUSTIN: Sounds very safe. There was essentially no crowd control going
on here, right? So, fans were comin’ in, they were going into
the tunnel, they were going in Pen 4 and Pen 3, and… they weren’t really, y’know, spreading
out at all. They were just back there, right. ALICE: Mm. Like when you get people onto a train, or
something. JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly. Y’know, there’s always the announcement that
says, ‘move to the middle of the train,’ and then people just… don’t do that. LIAM: No they do not. Bastards. [laughter]
JUSTIN: So, normally the police sort of coordinated moving people over to go into, like, Pen 6
or Pen 7, or, y’know, elsewhere, I don’t know how you got to Pens 1 and 2, this is not obvious
from the diagram. ALICE: I don’t think it was obvious to anybody
*there*, either. Like, it’s a weirdly laid out stadium, and
the fact that you have it in this kind of neutral ground means that nobody there who’s
there as a supporter knows it. LIAM: Oh yeah, fuck. I hadn’t even thought of that. JUSTIN: I hadn’t thought of that either, yeah. So normally the police sort of coordinated
crowd control like this, but today they didn’t really do that. LIAM: Oh good. JUSTIN: Today they’re really focused on preventing
hooliganism, rather than focused on controlling the crowd, right. ALICE: Well, I mean, the cop brain isn’t capable
of doing, like, holding two things in the same brainpan at the same time. You can either, uh, fucking hit somebody with
a truncheon if they look like they’re gonna punch anyone, *or* do any crowd control, but
you can’t do both. JUSTIN: Can’t do both, no. LIAM: Evidently not. Unpossible. JUSTIN: So, the game started about 10 minutes
early- ALICE: Oh good. JUSTIN: -or at least that’s when the fans
started hearing, y’know, cheers inside because the players had come out onto the pitch, right? Police asked for the kick-off to be delayed
about 20 minutes to get everyone in slowly and safely; that was denied. Game started as usual. LIAM: Oh, terrific work. ALICE: Denied by whomst? Just, like, the match officials or what? JUSTIN: I think it was the match officials
cause I think… it was a big televised game, so they didn’t wanna… ALICE: You gotta start on time, yeah. JUSTIN: Yeah. To alleviate the big crowd at the turnstiles
– keep in mind there was basically a crush forming around here and around here, and around
here, right, they decided that these various exit gates, which are over here, over here
and over here, should be opened. To a) allow people to leave who shouldn’t
be there, but also b) just to let people in, right? LIAM: Oh, let more people in, awesome. JUSTIN: Yeah. ALICE: Absolutely. And having… envisioning this kind of bidirectional
traffic, where people are coming in and going out through the same gates. Do we have pictures of these gates? Cause I remember them being pretty, like,
narrow, too. JUSTIN: Uh, well, one of the things we could
is we could play that clip you said we should play. ALICE: Oh yeah yeah yeah. Sure. JUSTIN: Yeah. Lemme do that. Lemme open-
ALICE: One of the things… let me introduce this while you find it, one of the things
I found was, uhm, some of the police communications between, you see the control box down there
in the stand, where the senior police officers are trying to manage all of this, and the
police actually at the turnstiles trying to decide who to club or whatever. LIAM: Beat with a truncheon, yeah. ALICE: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Being like, “we have to open this gate because
people are gonna die otherwise.” Uh, because they’re pressed up against these
turnstiles that you can only get through one by one. Um. A very confusing situation, by all accounts. JUSTIN: Yeah. So I’m gonna play the clip. Am I doing this? …that didn’t work. Okay. Here we go. LIAM: That’s a big crowd. Fucking hell. Holy shit, yeah. Look how fuckin’ packed together they are. JUSTIN: Very, very low quality CCTV, but y’know. LIAM: Oh, it didn’t have as many pixels back
then. [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah. JUSTIN: This part of Britain hadn’t switched
over to color yet. Because of austerity. [laughter]
LIAM: Jesus fuck! ALICE: Yeah, this is still outside, right? Like, these are the perimeter gates that we’re
seeing on the left hand side. LIAM: These are the *perimeter* gates? Holy shit. ALICE: Yeah, cause these will be the turnstiles
in the foreground. Uh. And so you can see, like, one person at a
time getting through each one. LIAM: Yeah. That’s… Jesus Christ. ALICE: “If we get Liverpool mixed up with
Notts Forest we’re going to have serious trouble.” [we watch in silence for a bit]
JUSTIN: This part is after, like, in the actual pitch. ALICE: Yep. JUSTIN: We’ll get to that in a second. LIAM: That’s… Jesus. Fuck. ALICE: That’s… grim. LIAM: Yeah. That’s… holy shit. ALICE: Yeah, you know something’s real bad-
LIAM: Good God! ALICE: -when someone asks you how many ambulances,
and you say “well, how many have you got?” LIAM: Yeah. JUSTIN: How many you got, yeah. LIAM: Good God. LIAM: …underselling it a bit. ALICE: Yeah. The thing I’m struck by is the first ambulance
that made its way in, just driving straight onto the pitch and having to like, move through
this crowd. LIAM: Yeah, exactly. JUSTIN: Yep. ALICE: And, like, what the fuck are you going
to do there? JUSTIN: …alright. Let’s hope The Independent doesn’t sue us. Um, for trying to… ALICE: Yeah. Copyright strike number two in the same video. LIAM: You can get right in line after Disney. Fuck you. [catharsis laughter]
ALICE: So we kind of, yeah, we kind of jumped the gun there, I didn’t realize that was gonna
go as long as it did, I just wanted the uh, the turnstile footage, but oh well. JUSTIN: Ahh, yeah, we’ll do some editing. It’s fine. [laughter]
ALICE: The editing is, you say, “We’ll do some editing,” and then we don’t-
JUSTIN: Then I don’t actually do it, yeah. ALICE: Yeah. It’s like the rushes for a movie where it
says, like, uh, ‘shot to come,’ where you say “we have to do some editing,” the audience
has to imagine editing has gone on, in the final product. JUSTIN: ‘SCENE MISSING.’ [laughter]
LIAM: ‘PLEASE STAND BY.’ JUSTIN: The Doctor Who episode that got written
over. [laughter]
LIAM: It’s just Roz saying [Justin voice] “FIX IT IN POST.” ALICE: Why did we only record these podcasts
on individual VHS tapes, and then leave them in a basement for fifty years? [laughter]
JUSTIN: So we have all these serious design flaws – once they open these gates, fans really
start, just rushing into the tunnel, right, because that’s just the most obvious spot
to go. They don’t know that there’s other ways into
other pens, and how crowded Pen 3 and Pen 4 are, right. ALICE: And there’s a crush *behind* them. Like we saw that, that’s… you want to get
away from that, so. JUSTIN: Yeah. Out of the frying pan, and into the fire. LIAM: [upset] Oh. ALICE: [upset] Mm. Jesus. LIAM: Putting it mildly. JUSTIN: So, this is, this is a view from the
uh, from the pitch into Pens 3 and 4, right. It almost looks kind of comical, but it’s
not a good situation. LIAM: Holy fuck. ALICE: I’m definitely, I’m going with Brueghel
painting again, or Hieronymous Bosch. You know. The fucking travails of the damned over here. It’s horrifying. JUSTIN: Mhm. So, this whole incident was caught on live
TV. LIAM: Good. JUSTIN: Of course. Yeah. ALICE: We’ll, I have some legal knowledge
about this that I’ll get to when we get to the, like, aftermath of this. It being on TV is important to, well, English
law afterwards. [I then forget to ever mention this again]
JUSTIN: So, the fans are streaming into Pens 3 and 4 pretty quickly, right. The crush barriers inside the pens give way,
and that means all the fans get pressed into the ‘anti-hooligan’ fencing. So, this fencing is all, like, abnormally
reinforced. ALICE: Yeah, so you *can’t climb it*. JUSTIN: So you can’t climb it. ALICE: Something like 12 feet tall. LIAM: Fuck. ALICE: And it bends *inwards* at the top,
too. So that you can’t, I guess, climb onto the
pitch and go and fistfight people. Which is… I don’t know that that was a proportionate
response to that risk? But that’s what they did, and so that’s what
people were up against. JUSTIN: Well, it certainly kept people from
getting out of the pen. ALICE: Oh yeah, that worked fantastically. The fencing in and of itself, not an engineering
disaster. JUSTIN: The fencing worked very well, it just
*shouldn’t have*. ALICE: Yes. LIAM: Yeah. JUSTIN: So, any fans who were able to, climbed
over this fencing onto the pitch, right, and the Nottingham fans got angry about that,
they started jeering and whistling, cause they thought it was a pitch invasion, right,
and the fans were gonna come out and they were gonna fight the players or somethin’,
y’know. ALICE: Mhm. One thing is, if you see the TV footage, some
of which we saw, it’s very difficult to even notice what’s going on. And, like, something about crush injuries
that you mentioned, about them killing a lot of people very quickly, if… when you watch
the footage, or when you look at stills like this, it’s not at all obvious that something
is badly wrong until it’s really *way* too late. LIAM: Right. JUSTIN: Yes. So, luckily some of this fencing was not engineered
so well. It gave way, right, so people were able to
get out that way. Other parts were cut away by [those of] the
police, who saw what was happening. There was also a gate they forced open, to
let people onto the pitch. ALICE: Yeah, some of the fans I think were
like able to force their way out through locked gates and stuff. Um, but, yeah, no, still really bad obviously. LIAM: Imagine trying to do that, as whatever
amount of people are still on you, yeah. Just like, trying to focus on ripping open
a fence that’s specifically designed not to be tampered with, as, y’know, eight hundred
other people are coming to their deaths, that’s pretty fuckin’ alarming. ALICE: Yeah. And to, like, force a padlocked gate or something,
when you not only can’t breathe but also don’t have, like, any room to move. I don’t know how anybody managed to open anything. JUSTIN: It’s just the sheer force of bodies
against the gate, y’know, at that point. LIAM: For sure. And that’s terrifying too, cause you gotta
imagine like, people are trying to coordinate, because obviously one person’s not gonna be
able to do it, trying to coordinate that, again, as they’re basically being crushed
to death. ALICE: Yeah. LIAM: Jesus fuck. JUSTIN: Some of the fans were pulled to safety
by the crowds in the stands above the pens. LIAM: Never walk alone… ALICE: Should not be possible. Like, basically you’re climbing on top of
people, like, stacked quite deeply to even be able to reach that. JUSTIN: Yeah. So, some of the officials seem to think this
is a pitch invasion, or they at least recognize what’s going on. There’s a 30 minute postponement of the game
which is ordered, so, y’know, folks aren’t streaming in the back any more, but at this
point the damage is done, right. This is about 3:10 or so, I think when this
happens. The game started at 3:00. LIAM: Fuck. ALICE: Just, like, [snapping fingers] like
that. JUSTIN: Yeah. LIAM: That’s the crazy thing to me, when we
talked about the ferry, too, and you mentioned, um, you’re dead ten minutes after you hit
the water. Just how quickly these things happen, it is
kind of terrifying to me just by itself. ALICE: Yeah, I can’t imagine the kind of presence
of mind that would allow you to even really understand what was happening to you. LIAM: Yeah, exactly. JUSTIN: Yeah. ALICE: Just in terms of like your own ability
to perceive risk, and perceive the situation, you are kind of stuck in your own head, you
can’t see anything. LIAM: Right, because there’s bodies all around
you, yeah. Also same with the gate, the sheer coordination
required to break that thing open, and then you have to coordinate with everybody else,
who presumably is also having a panic response. That’s, that’s fuckin’ unreal to me. JUSTIN: Here’s some of the highly pixellated
fans being taken out of the pens below. You can see one of the advertisements we saw
earlier, just to give you an idea of where we are. Um. Here’s-
ALICE: You can see how far above that is. LIAM: Yeah. JUSTIN: It’s Presto engineer’s cutting tools. ALICE: [black comedy lobe activating] Well
that’s a fucking bitter irony, isn’t it. JUSTIN: I know, right? And, yeah, there’s Presto engineer’s cutting
tools. ALICE: I love to, fucking, ride to safety
from a shipwreck on a big advertising hoarding for lifeboats. [laughter]
LIAM: Hey man, you never know. ALICE: Just, it, it’s fine, we’ll use the
big billboard for fire extinguishers as a fire blanket. JUSTIN: Yes. So the whole incident lasted no more than
ten minutes, right, and it left 96 people dead-
LIAM: Jesus fucking Christ. JUSTIN: -and 766 injured, and two of those
people injured were in a persistent vegetative state. Um. LIAM: [bleakly] Terrific. ALICE: Yeah, the last one died, I think something
like 15, 20 years later? LIAM: Jesus! JUSTIN: So, afterwards, um, there was a report
issued, sort of an inquiry into what happened, right, that was the Taylor Report, put together
by- ALICE: Well, no, *not* an inquiry, is the
thing. The families *wanted* an inquiry, but a public
inquiry is like a different, uh, more… it has more powers to like compel evidence and
stuff? And the government very fiercely resisted
that, and so you ended up with this first report that was kind of this whitewash. They only got bullied into doing a public
inquiry into Hillsborough literally in the last five years. Um. JUSTIN: I didn’t know that. ALICE: Yeah. No, um. JUSTIN: But even the Taylor Report, it estimated,
“okay, there’s about 3,000 people in these pens, which had an official capacity of 2,200,
and a more likely safe capacity of around 1,700 people.” And they just said straight up, even in this
first report, which is a whitewash, it said, “Police failed to adequately control and direct
the crowd-” LIAM: Putting it mildly. JUSTIN: Yeah… ALICE: Yup. JUSTIN: “That the kick-off should have been
delayed to allow for crowd control, which had happened in prior matches at the stadium,”
– this report also recommended doing away with standing room terraces entirely. Which… ALICE: Yes. Which they did, and it’s been kind of a mixed
bag? It.. it’s part of a lot of… a series of
packages for stadium safety that were absolutely necessary, and also bankrupted a lot of small
clubs? Just for refitting entire stadiums being very
expensive. But they’re kind of bringing it back now,
there is “safe standing” – yeah, we’ll see how that works. I guess. JUSTIN: Also makes going to the football more
expensive, cause now you gotta buy a seat. ALICE: Yup. Makes it more expensive, more sort of genteel,
for better and worse, um, and also is not very good if you’re a small club. JUSTIN: Yeah. This report also sorta discredited so-called
‘aggravating factors’, right. Y’know, there’s ideas that this was caused
because the crowd was full of drunkards, right, and the drunkards caused the crush? Or, y’know, a whole bunch of people had tried
to get in without tickets. ALICE: Yeah. Antifa-style thugs had incited an MS-13 style
attack, or whatever. JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly. And this was so the police could rationalize
their loss of control, ultimately. LIAM: WHO WOULD DO THAT. The police?! Nooooooo. JUSTIN: Being dishonest? I don’t believe it. ALICE: Incredible, yeah. JUSTIN: I’ve watched local news, and the police
are very nice, and honest, and upstanding. [laughter]
ALICE: I just, it’s so fucking tragicomic that the cop instinct to lie, and blame somebody
else, and be like, “Oh, you see what I have to deal with,” when you fuck up, leads to,
on the one end, this, where you kill a hundred people, and on the low end, like, trying to
get a barista fired because you wrote ‘pig’ on your own Starbucks cup. [laughter]
LIAM: That’s so fuckin’ embarrassing. ALICE: I don’t know how to explain that continuum
of behavior. JUSTIN: Cop brain is very confusing to me. ALICE: I don’t understand the cop mentality. JUSTIN: It will forever be a closed book to
the wise and learned scholars that we are. LIAM: Yep. That’s us. [laughter]
JUSTIN: So, now, despite that, despite the fact that even the first report, which was,
y’know, supposed to be the whitewash report, completely discredited all these ideas of
aggravating factors being the primary cause, or secondary causes at best, but completely
meaningless most likely – cause, y’know, this wasn’t a particularly drunk crowd. ALICE: No. Well, as evidenced by the fact that so many
of them were able to save themselves. JUSTIN: Yeah. LIAM: Yeah. ALICE: That’s got to be a lot more fucking
difficult if you are drunk and intent on violence, rather than, I don’t know, just trying to
go to the football and in possession of your own faculties. JUSTIN: But, these ideas gained a lot of traction,
thanks in no small part to… the Sun! ALICE: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
LIAM: The SCUM. Agh, fucking *awful*. JUSTIN: Pieces of shit. ALICE: The worst fucking newspaper on the
face of the fucking earth. JUSTIN: Garbages. Complete dinguses. ALICE: One thing I will say, I don’t know
if this has been *proven*, so I’m being slightly tentative here, but South Yorkshire Police
in the 80s… like, you think cops are bad now, anywhere? Just *insanely* dirty. Like, what you think of as, like, a fucking
rural Louisiana sheriff’s office kind of corruption. And so it absolutely is not beyond the realm
of possibility to say that this front page came straight from the police to the Sun,
and the Sun printed it. LIAM: Oh yeah, Gordon Sykes! Uh, yeah, he was the one who-
JUSTIN: [yokel voice] “Well howdy Sheriff…” LIAM: Gordon Sykes is the one who, he was
the police inspector who made those claims about pickpocketing the dead. Yeah. ALICE: Yeah. Well, it’s fine though, if you’re a Sun journalist,
because you have a source for it, and… a police officer *wouldn’t lie*. LIAM: No, noooooo. ALICE: So you don’t have to do any journalism,
you can just say this, and you can attribute it, and then you can move on with your life. JUSTIN: Yes. Yes, that’s how journalism works. If you have a source, it’s real, it happened. ALICE: Yes. LIAM: Absolutely. ALICE: I do want to highlight, like, one of
the, one of the consequences of the Hillsborough disaster was… Liverpool, always been a very working class
city, always been a very politically active and mobilized city with a strong sense of
its own identity, which is why it irritates Tories so much, because they think they’re
like ‘entitled’ and ‘whiny’ and stuff. But like, one of – *absolute* community solidarity
in the wake of this led to, not only campaigning for a public inquiry for, fucking, 30 years,
*and getting it*, but also a total lockout of the Sun in Liverpool. You basically, you cannot buy that paper in
Liverpool. Because whether or not the newsagent wants
to sell it or not, no-one buys it. It just has an absolutely, uh, close to zero
readership in Liverpool to this day. And I think that’s the only correct response
to something like this. JUSTIN: [ironically] You see, there’s a silver
lining to every cloud. [laughter]
LIAM: One of my favorite things is that I’m actually part of the… whatever US Liverpool
supporters’ Facebook group, and it’s funny because every so often you will just see someone
who’s an American, who has not a ton of reason to be speculating, or talking about the Sun,
just going full-bore over how pissed off they are, on vacation in London, to even see it. [laughter]
ALICE: Hating the Sun becoming part of Liverpool, and Liverpool Football Club’s, identity is
one of the best things that could have happened, because they deserve every inch of it. JUSTIN: So this article, as we can see headlined
‘The Truth,’ y’know. Very large front page spread on, y’know, one
of Britain’s respected tabloid newspapers. ALICE: I think had the highest readership
in the UK at that point? JUSTIN: …I can’t fuckin’ believe British
journalism, just in general. ALICE: [tired voice] Yeah. JUSTIN: But the Sun is the worst. LIAM: It’s a doozy. ALICE: Yes. JUSTIN: Yeah. So they mentioned, like, ‘drunken Liverpool
fans viciously attacked rescue workers as they tried to revive victims’, y’know, they
said ‘police officers, firemen and ambulance crew were punched, kicked and urinated upon,’
‘Liverpool fans pickpocketed the dead’, y’know, and of course they got these, they editorialize
a bit here, y’know, ‘some fans urinated on the *brave* cops’. LIAM: Oh, of course. JUSTIN: ‘Fans beat up-‘ PC’s a Police Constable,
right? ALICE: Yes. JUSTIN: Okay. ‘-giving the kiss of life.’ …I dunno if I want that. ALICE: Which… yeah. I think they literally had to change it to
like, ‘mouth-to-mouth resuscitation’ or ‘rescue breaths’ because ‘kiss of life’ sounded too
sus. [laughter]
JUSTIN: Fellas, is it gay to save someone’s life? [laughter]
JUSTIN: Um, now the editor… is it Calvin McKenzie? ALICE: Kelvin. Kelvin McKenzie. JUSTIN: Kelvin. …is it really Kelvin? LIAM: Of course it is. ALICE: His name is Kelvin McKenzie. JUSTIN: Kelvin McKenzie, he apologized for
this front page in 1993. Then in 2006 he *un*-apologized for it. LIAM: Oh FUCK, come on, dude. ALICE: That’s a very… that’s a very Posting
move, to be like, “Actually, when I said this was wrong, fuck you.” Yeah. [laughter]
ALICE: The Sun did try to like rebuild that bridge, by-
LIAM: Fuck ’em. ALICE: -after the inquiry came out, they had
another front page that was like, ‘The Real Truth,’ where they were talking about, um,
Liverpool supporters providing first aid to each other and stuff, and… predictably,
and joyfully, Liverpool just told them to go fuck themselves again. So! JUSTIN: Nice. LIAM: Good. ALICE: Yeah. Absolutely do not forgive the Sun for anything. JUSTIN: Yes. So, this is not the only crappy media portrayal
of the incident right afterwards. A lot of newspapers tried to link it to hooliganism
and drunkenness, but this is certainly the most infamous of them. ALICE: Mhm. Yeah. You have South Yorkshire Police going on a
years-long campaign of disinformation and smears to try and, like, burnish their own
reputation. LIAM: Oh, of course. Why would they not? They would never do anything wrong. No. JUSTIN: Then, uh, sort of the aftermath, after
this. So, Premier League football stadiums are now
all seats, no standing room, right. ALICE: Yup. Most of the lower leagues too, even still. JUSTIN: There’s a certain move towards, or
experiments with, ‘safe standing’, where there’s a railing on every row, and that has *some*
protection against crushing. And stricter capacity limits. ALICE: Yeah. The biggest protection against repeating this
is just… taking down the fucking twenty foot razor wire fences from the front of the
pitch. Yeah, no, that’s gone, pens are gone, um,
that absolutely needed to happen, standing itself… [uncertain noise] …hard to say,
one way or the other. JUSTIN: Um, later on the Hillsborough Independent
Panel was commissioned, and they found that Liverpool fans were in no way responsible
for the disaster. Lack of police control was, and there was
some debate as to whether lives might have been saved with better emergency service coordination. They also found that 164 witness statements
had been altered. LIAM: No! JUSTIN: Of those statements, 116 were amended
to remove or change negative comments about South Yorkshire Police. ALICE: Including – my favorite detail of this
– including statements taken from South Yorkshire Police officers. LIAM: [laughs in disbelief]
ALICE: They fucking doctored the statements *of their own guys*, who were like, ‘we did
this wrong,’ to say ‘actually no we didn’t’. And lied about it for *decades*. It’s just breathtaking. LIAM: That’s fucking amazing. ALICE: This… this only came out, like the
Independent Panel only existed because the survivors and the relatives absolutely refused
to be satisfied by the Taylor Report. And kept pushing, and pushing, and pushing,
through government after government, for an independent review into it. And they eventually got it, and what they
got out of it was this absolute affirmation that South Yorkshire Police had been lying
through their teeth the whole time, at the report. Uh, yeah. Just incredible. JUSTIN: And I believe after that, there was
a coroner’s hearing, which sort of affirmed everything which had previously been said,
and they tried taking a bunch of people to court over it, and no-one was actually prosecuted. LIAM: That’s fucking gross. ALICE: Well, that’s – they did prosecute one,
finally. They prosecuted, uh… I think Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield
is his name. LIAM: Hell of a name. JUSTIN: Wow. ALICE: Yeah, extremely British guy. He was the senior police officer there, he
was in the control box, and he was the one who ordered those gates opened. They prosecuted him for manslaughter, on the
grounds of criminal negligence, and he was acquitted of all charges. LIAM: Of course he fucking was. ALICE: Yeah. So, I dunno. I… a jury decided that there was reasonable
doubt about whether or not he was criminally negligent to do that. And, I’m not gonna second guess them, but-
LIAM: I CAN. I CAN DO THAT. JUSTIN: I mean, I *guess* there’s reasonable
doubt. Maybe he didn’t know that no-one was gonna
direct them to the other pens. LIAM: [noise of increasing anger]
JUSTIN: That everyone was gonna shove into the same space, but like… everyone was gonna
shove into the same single space. LIAM: Well, what the fuck else were they gonna
do, man? JUSTIN: I know that, like, we’re socialists
and therefore, y’know, ‘the wisdom of the crowd’, but it turns out that does not apply
to *actual crowds*. LIAM: Not this fucking time. ALICE: No. If a vanguard party means anything, it is
having a guy in a hi-vis who knows where people should be going. JUSTIN: Yes. [laughter]
JUSTIN: Lenin in hi-vis. [laughter]
ALICE: Somebody please photoshop that for us. JUSTIN: He’s got like those big lights you
use to direct airplanes. [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah. It’s grim, but. Between this and Heysel, those were kind of
the two high water marks of the moral panic about hooliganism, and it did kind of seem
to recede after this, just because the obscenity of it was so great that it didn’t make sense
any more, to kind of stigmatize football fans as this, like, beer-swilling, racial fistfights
sort of monobloc. I feel like on some level, there was some
institutional sense of shame. Which is never gonna be enough – it certainly
wasn’t an apology, and it’s not gonna bring anyone back – and it didn’t stop them lying
about it to cover their own arses. But I think there was a point where police
and the government stopped being able to look people in the eye and say, yeah, the problem
is hooliganism here, exclusively. LIAM: Small, small comfort. JUSTIN: Yeah, this was caused, y’know. This was maybe not caused by anti-hooliganism
measures, but it was certainly exacerbated by it. Y’know. ALICE: For sure. JUSTIN: They’re so concentrated on, well,
make sure these people don’t kill each other, they’re not gonna take any actions to prevent
them from… well, killing each other in a different, less direct way. ALICE: You have to, like, yeah, you have to
have this disconnect in the cop brain between, ‘oh, what I’m doing is a public safety thing’
and ‘oh, what I’m doing is the violence thing that’s my actual job, and so I’m just going
to have to herd these people into these cages.’ It’s… yeah, it’s very bad. JUSTIN: ‘Yeah, I’m gonna go do the Black Hole
of Calcutta, but for football.’ [laughter]
ALICE: Yeah. Just, fucking, squeezing more and more people
into this fucking thing. Yeah. JUSTIN: Yeah, so, um. Well. That was… ALICE: I fucking, I did my best to get a silver
lining out of this to end on, but it’s… ah, we’re all fucking upset now, once again,
it’s the Grenfell thing all over again, it’s gonna be like that when we do Bhopal so we
can’t do Bhopal next, cause we have to do like a palate cleanser, where somebody drives
a train into a painted-on tunnel and smashes it into a pancake. [laughter]
JUSTIN: Yeah, we gotta come up with a goofy thing to do next, because now we’ve done two
depressing ones in a row. LIAM: It’s an engineering disasters podcast,
man. [laughter]
JUSTIN: This is true, yes. ALICE: That’s true. We knew what we were signing up for. JUSTIN: But I mean, obviously that’ll have
to wait, because obviously our next episode will be on the Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster. LIAM: Oh, that’s less depressing, at least. ALICE: I don’t know, I’m still… you can
get really upset about the car with the dog in it. JUSTIN: Yeah, that is very sad. Probably a really cute dog. ALICE: Apart from everything else, like, the
pictures for that one, it’s gonna involve less acid-washed denim. JUSTIN: This is true, yes. ALICE: Why did everyone, why did everyone
in Britain in the 80s just wear acid-washed denim? Just from top to bottom. Just a like, fucking, Canadian tuxedo ass
country. JUSTIN: Very fancy. LIAM: Yeah, the more denim you have, the fancier
you are. Duh. JUSTIN: Yes. LIAM: Doin’ great. JUSTIN: Mhm. ALICE: Yeah. Well, we made it. JUSTIN: We made it. Alright, so. ALICE: Everyone’s gonna be mad at us for different,
contradictory reasons. Some of us for doing too much sports, some
of us for not doing enough sports. LIAM: Yeah, let’s hear it, you fucks. ALICE: We’re all permanently banned from visiting
Liverpool, because of everything we’ve said. You might have thought we were taking their
side? Enhhh. I wouldn’t be so sure. LIAM: You’ll never walk alone. There, hah, I’ve done it, I’ve done it! JUSTIN: We’re saved. [laughter]
ALICE: Pulling it back into the end. JUSTIN: Yeah. Alright. So. I guess that’s the end of the podcast. Uh. Does anyone want to do a commercial? ALICE: Uh, I did mine up front. So I’m good. JUSTIN: Ah, that’s true. Aren’t y’all uh streaming now? On Twitch? LIAM: Fancy pants. Look at you. ALICE: Yeah, I haven’t been doing that yet
cause I… don’t wannt download Fortnite. LIAM: Understandable. ALICE: But the Twitch link is twitch.tv/trashfuturepodcast. JUSTIN: Is it a Fornite Twitch? ALICE: Uh, well so far that’s what we’ve done. We’ve been trying to get Riley to do grand
strategy, just because people want to see him play, uh, fucking, Victoria 2 or something
like that. JUSTIN: Ah, I see. ALICE: Yeah. It’d be good. I’m gonna talk them into letting me do Farming
Simulator soon, I think. JUSTIN: Oh, that’d be fun. I’d watch that. LIAM: Hard same. JUSTIN: Yeah. I guess, watch my YouTube channel? Franklin 11 is coming out soon. LIAM: It’s coming! It’s finally coming! JUSTIN: Yeah, I got a whole bunch of work
done this weekend. Oh boy. LIAM: I’m so proud of you, buddy. JUSTIN: It’s gonna be on banking in the American
colonies- LIAM: Oh, I was not consulted on this. I, a Jewish man, not consulted. ALICE: I saw a musical about that. [laughter]
ALICE: No, he was just transcribing the entire libretto from Hamilton into the thing. JUSTIN: [‘yes’ voice] No. LIAM: SEE ANOTHER MUSICAL. I am so sick of hearing about Hamilton. Jesus. It wasn’t that good! It wasn’t that fucking good, okay?! ALICE: When you’re making it, can you edit
in a single frame of the Tumblr art of the asexual trans boy Thomas Jefferson? Because that’s just the most cursed thing
to come out of Hamilton. JUSTIN: You think there’s like a Hamilton
Harry Potter slashfiction? LIAM: You know there is! You know there is! ALICE: Ohhhh. Buzzfeed Hamilton Slack. LIAM: We can read those fanfics on air. JUSTIN: Singularity of woke liberalism. [laughter]
LIAM: READ ANOTHER BOOK. JUSTIN: Watch another musical! LIAM: DO ANYTHING ELSE, fuck! ALICE: Yeah. Watch a lesser-known Sondheim, please, I’m
begging you. I need someone else to have seen ‘Assassins!’ LIAM: Or go watch Come from Away, which is
good, and about Newfoundland! JUSTIN: Oh yeah. There you go. Uh. ALICE: Play us out with ‘The Ballad of Czolgosz’. JUSTIN: Yes. Right. That’s my commercial, watch my YouTube channel. Go to our Patreon, too. We have a bonus episode about Groverhaus. LIAM: Oh yeah. I have a bonus episode update! I do! I have not forgotten about recording about
my own van. Um, I am going home on Saturday, possibly,
donoteat is coming with me, we have to talk about that, where I will be talking to a friend
of mine who was one of the only people to have actually ridden in this van, uh, before
it met its untimely end. ALICE: You’re doing a fucking oral history
of your own van. LIAM: Yes I am. ALICE: That’s incredible. LIAM: Yes I am. [laughter]
LIAM: So, look forward to that, I’m hopeful that we can record that next mmmmweek, at
our normal bat-time, normal bat-channel. Uh. I am Liam Anderson, I am @oldmananders0n on
Twitter, uh. [blows raspberry] Where was I going with this. Oh yeah. Please continue to get real fuckin’ mad in
our comments section about the absolute dumbest shit, like the guy who got mad at us eleven
episodes in – eleven episodes in – for swearing and going off-topic. [laughter]
LIAM: Because nothing makes me happier than when fucking morons have no idea about what
they’re talking about, and I guess I’m sorry, to that guy, for swearing too much. [insincerely] My bad, chief. But also, get fucked. JUSTIN: Also the guy who got mad at us for
even mentioning the NFL? LIAM: Oh yeah! JUSTIN: Like, apparently even mentioning the
NFL, even in a critical fashion, is the same as endorsing the NFL. ALICE: We are NFL tankies. LIAM: Yes! We are all big fans of rape culture now. Somehow. ALICE: We’re like Dengists for Roger Goodell. LIAM: That’s us. That’s us. Support… we defend the shield on this podcast. ALICE: The great chairman… the great helmsman…
[laughter] JUSTIN: Critical support for Dan Snyder. LIAM: Ugh. Gyughhhhhh. [laughter]
JUSTIN: I do not have critical support for Dan Snyder. I do not have any support for him. ALICE: No. Yeah. Uh, fucking, go birds-
LIAM: Go birds. ALICE: Justice for the 96. JUSTIN: Yes. ALICE: What else? Ehmmm. I think that’s it. JUSTIN: Go birds. LIAM: Go birds again. Uh. Yeah, so now it’s time for NFL Chat, uh. So uh, go Titans. I wanna see an absolute bunch of ragtag fucking
weirdos win a Super Bowl. JUSTIN: Oh, that’d be fun. ALICE: Sure. JUSTIN: Special Super Bowl episode just to
irritate that one guy. [laughter]
LIAM: Well, the college football championship is on tonight, and you’re a bad American if
you root for Clemson, so. Geaux Tigers. ALICE: Mm. JUSTIN: That’s G-E-A-U-X. ALICE: That’s right. JUSTIN: That’s right. LIAM: And pay the kids. Alright. JUSTIN: Yeah. Pay the kids. LIAM: Alright. We good? JUSTIN: Yeah. Think we’re good. That’s a podcast. Bye everyone. ALICE: That is a podcast. Bye.


Please look at Alice's twitter account. She posted a truly disturbing meme. What was it? She said that Christopher Hitchens is burning in hell. Why? Because he supported the Iraq war? Nope! Because he was harsh towards Princess Diana even after her death? Nope! Why does Alice think Hitchens is burning in hell? Because he denied Islam.

Please think about that. If you are a non-Muslim, Alice believes that you belong in hell. How sickening is that?


Confusing hooligans with ultras. Its not the same, but some are both.
Also hooligans played a big role in jugoslavian civil war. Some of them still carry guns and are part of ex military crime syndicates.

24:30 When I was younger I went with my family to a major amusement park-style place. We had brought our own food to eat, but when they checked our bags at the entrance they didn't allow us to bring the food in for "security" reasons (obviously so we would have to buy food inside). So my dad temporarily stayed behind at the entrance while the rest of us went through, and passed the sandwiches through the bars of the big front wall. Security saw us and ran up to us on the inside a minute later demanding to confiscate the sandwiches, so we ate as much as we could right there.
After spending a few hours at the park, we came back to the entrance to leave to find that they'd erected this makeshift bamboo fence across the whole length of the entrance gates/wall, so you couldn't stick your hand through the bars. It makes me laugh that they were so quick to modify the entrance to their famous tourist attraction over a sandwich.

Safe standing has effectively worked in Germany for a while. I can say the reason football fans want safe standing is because it'd be cheaper tickets and would create a more energetic and enjoyable fan culture, seeing the mandatory seating as promoting a flat atmosphere. The match going attendance is a lot older and wealthier than the attendance to German matches which have safe standing. FC St Pauli, an anti-hooligan, anti-fascist team in Hamburg has a lot of this standing, and people in these areas sing and jump about together a lot and have these incredible displays. But German football culture is very different to English culture, so I don't know if it would have a positive impact here.

I've heard that in crush situations people move more like a fluid, which I never quite understood until I watched the television footage of this. It's chilling seeing all the different ripples of people moving against their will in that crowd 😐

(Fuck Rupert Murdoch)

Stick with sports and do the Mercedes Benz CLR since no one was badly hurt and instead you just have a story about how a massive car company forgot what a wind tunnel was

Heizel stadium is in Belgium. Almost Dutch but the Belgians were given independence some 180 years ago 🙂 That not being an engineering disaster but a social one no biggie you missed it.

Not security evasion, but I had a brand new bottle of spray sunscreen taken off me by security because they didn't want to risk me smuggling alcohol. I'm still angry, it was $15 sunscreen. And yet none of them found my medication (which literally includes amphetamines).

Just remembered a disaster worth covering: the Dreamworld Thunder River Rapids ride malfunction that caused the death of four. The park knew the ride had the problem but failed to act. It took until the early hours of the morning for all the bodies to be recovered.

Another great episode. I'd love to learn about that Mexican fireworks factory explosion in 2016. #nomoretrainsphobia

If you want a more light-hearted episode, may I recommend you covering that one time a janitor accidentally stole a commuter train, and smashed it into an apartment complex. In case you have no idea what I'm talking about, look up "2013 Saltsjöbanan accident" on your search engine of choice

I don't think I heard mention of the design of the pens; how all the openings to move between pens were at the back by the tunnel everyone was filtering through, and towards the pitch was a dead end.

Love the show but I wish they could stay on topic a little more. Just when they are getting into something interesting someone will make a "funny" comment and the conversation goes down some random rabbit hole for 5 minuets.

The best comparison for America is probably high school football/basketball because schools are typically closer in distance and especially basketball because of how close the student sections are. The verbal insults can get (trump voice) real naaaasty

A Bruins fan shouldn't be talking shit about any other team's performance during the Stanley Cup. Love from St. Louis 💙

Yo if anyone has any questions about Hillsborough, hit me up. I've spent years studying it and can clarify/add detail to a lot of stuff mentioned/missed here

Thats fucking football right there. None of that pansy ass dick tugging smile for the camera bullshit. Men puke, men poop on the field, men deliver their new born baby on the side lines. Fucking hard core dick in the ass butterball foosball fuck it chuck it game time shit. Take it to the showers. Dicks get shoved in places you don’t even remember. We win together we celebrate together. Football is back baby.

This podcast is actually super cool and good. It is actually weird how they are religius though, it seems they are all way too smart for that.

Fuck South Yorkshire Police! Take a look at the Battle of Orgreave, during the 80's Miners Strike, they went in to it like a medieval fucken battle! Including solid rumours that they even bought in army boys and removed their badge numbers!


Every time I’m in a crowd at a large public event and I see those bike-rack style crowd control barriers funneling people through the exits like cattle in a slaughterhouse, all I can think of is how deadly that would turn the minute anything that could panic the crowd occurs.

You know, like a mass shooting at a concert?

(Sorry, as an American I’ve accepted that’s just an everyday occurrence now)

I wonder if this podcast will do the Titanic disaster, there is an interesting story behind it on how the company that owned the titanic was owned by JP Morgan and had an almost monopoly on the transatlantic and how the company cared more about profits than safety

They heysel stadium disaster would also be an amazing one to do. Just for the fact the game was played after.

Edit I'm dumb and didnt listen long enough for you to already talk about it.

Since you're sticking to sports from now on, get David Roth on the podcast and do a Deadcast/WTYP crossover, YOU COWARDS.

That or a Deadspin style "Now THESE Engineering Disasters are Frauds in My Opinion" episode.

The bit about Football Hooliganism evolving into paramilitary organization when society starts to break down has some interesting parallels in the late classical age. During the height of the Byzantine Empire a lot of Constantinople's politics got refracted through the lens of the two major chariot racing teams, the greens and the blues. This culminated in the Nika Riots in 532, which proportionately were probably one of the most destructive riots in human history. According to the historian Procopius it almost caused the emperor to flee the city.

Human crushes! My favorite type of engineering disaster (aka the type I'm the most scared of). Every few months I read the wikipedia page on them and then get nervous whenever I'm in the dining hall during the lunch rush. I would absolute love to see a Hajj episode, it's a fascinating history and every time I start reading about it, it seems to get crazier and crazier

Hey, I really enjoy the podcast. Just wanted to let you know, though, that I have a really hard time listening to the show when there are 4 people talking over and competing to out-snark one another as opposed to well balanced 3-host format. Love the podcast, super educational, and can't wait for that 'Tacoma Narrows Bridge' episode which I'm totally sure is coming soon 👍

24:28 in the early 2000's ultras from my team would bring flares into stadiums hidden in hot dogs because who would make a person throw his fucking hot dog

44:15 the people big into hooliganism have groups and can sometimes behave like a paramilitary like you said so they would probably come out of it okay, but the normie just wanting to cheer his team on would have no idea that he should break that gate or climb that fence

One of my earliest childhood memories was of seeing this on the news. Images of dead bodies, still, hanging on a fence. Horrifying.

I got really drunk at a Union RBNY game once. Someone was being arrested and I thought shit would pop off like it's Europe so I tried to drop kick the cop.

In the picture of the fans being hoisted up, under the A in Toyota, you can see a little child being held up, with blond curly hair, it looks like in the arms of a woman. That's really bothering me, though I already knew of course that there were children there. Children killed. I suppose I haven't spent a lot of time looking at these pictures before.

20:50 ish: Sounders represent. https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sounders/mls-lifts-ban-on-iron-front-flag-after-working-with-sounders-supporters-groups-and-others/

Does anybody else think that Justin is like a socialist Joe Pera? His voice and mannerisms make him sound much older . He plays up his character with dry wit and sarcasm.
Or am I crazy?

I wish I could leave an angry comment just for the possibility of a smartass reply back, but you 3 genuinely make my day each video you post and are the reason my work days don't suck as bad as they could

The thing I said I was going to mention and then forgot to is a case named Alcock v Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, where a bunch of relatives sued for damages because they had been traumatised by seeing their loved ones get killed on live TV. This led to a number of criteria for so-called 'secondary victims' of psychiatric injury, such as needing to have directly perceived the events and having a close tie of love or affection to a victim. It's very much not great law, but so far nobody has come up with anything better.

i've put a pocketknife in a bush so i could enter a courthouse, also a few times security at concerts have given up searching my bag because i'm carrying a whole overnight kit including clothes.

Worked in Liverpool in the 90's and we had guys coming over from the US… they all wanted to see the brit newspaper with photos of topless women in it that they'd heard about. Imagine their disappointment. fwiw when you told them no one sold it they assumed it was a Catholic/religious thing.

Long-time watcher. I love the podcast. As someone with 0 experience in podcasts, let me offer you a few pointerinos to help you along, things I just now noticed in this one episode:

– Stay more on topic! People don't want you veering off into fun anecdotes. This is a SERIOUS engineering podcast! Nobody likes comedy.
– Stop bashing capitalism and cops so much. Don't you know you're recording on equipment made by cops? Serious hypocrisy there /-:
– Don't do the pronoun stuff. It was really silly and awkward to introduce that in this episode, when you've never done it before.
– Praise Elon Musk more often. His ultragenius ideas are going to save the world from the efficiencies of public transportation.

Hope this helps! (-:

(/s, in case it needs to be said)

Alice is now on Twitter laughing at someone who committed suicide I have got screen shots and will be passed on to appropriate people, she is s bully on Twitter and I wont stand for it

alice is so unfunny and she adds nothing to the pod. it's so painful wading through her constant and cringeworthy interruptions of otherwise fascinating stories

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